tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post3128204497048085298..comments2024-03-28T05:02:45.682-07:00Comments on Between the Bolter and Me: Female representation in wargamingAdam Wierhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11710889303035437886noreply@blogger.comBlogger126125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-76041943066631027082020-01-14T18:51:06.145-08:002020-01-14T18:51:06.145-08:00People can like what they like. The Sisters of Bat...People can like what they like. The Sisters of Battle are an iconic part of the lore and imagery of 40k, and they should stay that way. I would just like some models of women in 40K that do not have form-fitting armor. Presently, most of the available female models in many miniature ranges present women in a very similar way. Nearly all with "swim-suit model" body-types and in provocative poses. <br /><br />I have not said that women should not wear things that I deem provocative. Nor have I said that they should only dress exactly like men. If you look at modern day military organizations with men and women soldiers, it is hard to distinguish between sexes when they are fully dressed in their armor. I would like to see some miniatures like that. I do not think that is the only type of female representation that should be available, however.<br /><br />I am not here to tell women what they can and cannot do. I do know quite a few women that feel that the current representation of women in wargaming is sending a message that they are not welcome. This article was just a reflection on why that might be the case.Gregory Wierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04773235150604731258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-5295526337352054782020-01-14T18:04:09.884-08:002020-01-14T18:04:09.884-08:00Answer me this, mister high-and-mighty. What do yo...Answer me this, mister high-and-mighty. What do you say to women who actually LIKE models like this and like playing with them in RPGs or wargames? For example, I have a friend who likes the Battle Sisters because they can kick ass with the men in the setting while looking their best. <br />In addition, by saying that women shouldn't dress in what you perceive as a "provocative" way and should only be represented as you yourself deemed appropriate, i.e. dressed exactly like the men with only slight differences, you are in reality being sexist. You are saying inadvertently that men are better than women because women are only acceptable if they dress like the men do with nothing to set themselves apart. Not to mention that you are saying that it is a crime for a woman to dress or be sculpted in any way that could be perceived as "attractive." So while you were trying to defend women by saying that they should not be perceived as hyper-sexualized objects, your point is moot because you are also saying that women should not be allowed to be women; they should dress and look exactly like men do, an inherently sexist statement which negates all of your points.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-82438507442899001822018-09-11T12:38:53.485-07:002018-09-11T12:38:53.485-07:00That's a very very very unrepresentative examp...That's a very very very unrepresentative example of infinity models. The range has about 700-800 miniatures and you pick one of the only half dozen or so current models that have cleavage. The range is big enough that there's looooads of fully clothed non sexualized female minis to choose from so whats the problem? I could understand where you were coming from if there was no choice. But there is tons of choice. Just don't buy the minis you dont like.Dave Curranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15212317772375749429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-19594824308076340632018-09-06T12:25:19.970-07:002018-09-06T12:25:19.970-07:00I'm a gay woman, I like looking at women as mu...I'm a gay woman, I like looking at women as much as anyone. I've also been in and out of the hobby for over 20 years. The paucity of representaion, and diversity of what is there of female models is something that has annoyed me for most of that time. And it's not just games workshop by any means, they're just the biggest name in miniatures. Personally, I love them for the quality of their miniatures, they're some of the best sculpted and cast and how customisable the plastic kits in their two main ranges are is astounding, but that makes it more annoying that they haven't included a wider range of females. I'm not asking for Space Marines to be female as well as male (although I'm not saying I wouldn't applaud that decision, I would love it if it happened)But looking throug their ranges, women are mostly in one of two roles, nuns (including the adeputs sororitas) or seducers. Both of those groups have their secondary sexual characteristics (boobs and butts) highlighted by the clothing and poses chosen as do the few women who don't fit one of those groups, mostly character models.<br /><br />I think if Games Workshop expanded their ranges to include a more diverse range of women who aren't sexualised, it would increase their customer base and show to the other miniature studios that it not only can be done, but is a good business practice as well.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876999938471098804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-45574892962781777202018-01-25T14:41:22.554-08:002018-01-25T14:41:22.554-08:00I don't know, man. When a bunch of women come ...I don't know, man. When a bunch of women come out and say that the representation of women is hyper-sexualized and offensive, I will listen to their beliefs over yours. When they say it is a mountain, I will listen. amaximushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04166777143772071808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-91269473426665455542017-11-06T15:41:12.624-08:002017-11-06T15:41:12.624-08:00If anyone wants to see some awesome 40k Imperial G...If anyone wants to see some awesome 40k Imperial Guard female miniatures, you should check out Victoria Miniatures. They are definitely females but still look like tough soldiers. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-75426337950276594522017-04-02T07:23:01.339-07:002017-04-02T07:23:01.339-07:00The problem of female representation isn’t solely ...The problem of female representation isn’t solely confined to wargaming. It is a problem that the video game industry faces, along with most media. As you mention, Street Fighter is a prime example, as are most fighting games in general (Dead or Alive, Soul Calibur, and Mortal Kombat to give a few examples). Video games have been embraced by a larger margin of people than wargaming, and I think that has helped push that industry towards trying to improve. But, as you know, there is still a long way to go.<br /><br />It is nice to see an older women in Privateer Press’ model range. More ranges should look towards doing that. Malifaux is not a game known for anatomically reasonable models, but they have an old woman named Zoraida that does a nice job of showing that not every woman needs to be young and attractive (https://www.wyrd-games.net/zoraida).Gregory Wierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04773235150604731258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-51890769052173427392017-03-31T19:47:52.081-07:002017-03-31T19:47:52.081-07:00Even the demonette artwork is as straight man horr...Even the demonette artwork is as straight man horror-fantasy as can be.amaximushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04166777143772071808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-30086725594789501332017-03-31T19:46:50.623-07:002017-03-31T19:46:50.623-07:00@Gregory Wier
I was also thinking of sports bras. ...@Gregory Wier<br />I was also thinking of sports bras. I was told female archers wear a binder, I may look at that. <br /><br />Right. I am on the fence about the mono-boobplate myself. I also agree about the size of all the breasts, if all those models were blown up to 1:1 scale they would be much larger than average when compared to real life. amaximushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04166777143772071808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-14286281006013570752017-03-31T18:10:02.466-07:002017-03-31T18:10:02.466-07:00@amaximus
Making good female Blood Reaver models i...@amaximus<br />Making good female Blood Reaver models is complicated by there being a dearth of muscular female models. I honestly cannot think of any examples of good models to base a female Blood Reaver around. But, if you did have a female model to use to build one, I think you would want to have her breasts wrapped and hugged close to her body. There is a reason why women wear sports bras when exercising. <br /><br />I feel that you could have a single armor plate to cover her breasts. It have mixed feelings about the female stormcast model. I am pleased that she is large and imposing like the other stormcast. It is nice that she does not have the standard boobplate with each breast individually cupped. However, it strikes me that she still has an extremely large bosom. Have all smaller breasted women been bred out of the population in Age of Sigmar (and 40k, for that matter)? That stormcast would have to be extremely well endowed to fill that armor.Gregory Wierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04773235150604731258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-89622320926570655612017-03-31T16:18:36.114-07:002017-03-31T16:18:36.114-07:00Thanks for presenting a whole host of excellent po...Thanks for presenting a whole host of excellent points. Just because it is fantasy does not demand that female models wear boobplate. "Fantasy" is not an excuse to continue to peddle in sexist and harmful tropes and imagery. <br /><br />As you pointed out, we are not saying that all female models should be indistinguishable from male models. It is all based on context. A fully armored female Imperial Guard trooper would not be readily distinguishable from a male counterpart, something you can see when looking at images of service members of the military today. But if the characters you wish to portray are not armored, it makes more sense that differences would be discernible. <br /><br />Excellent point about the demonettes, as well. They were not designed to appeal to asexual individuals, gay men, or heterosexual women. The existing designs were pointed squarely at appealing to straight men.Gregory Wierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04773235150604731258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-89753972132733850222017-03-31T12:20:03.049-07:002017-03-31T12:20:03.049-07:00@Ahmad
You where not receptive to what Aletheia sa...@Ahmad<br />You where not receptive to what Aletheia said from the start, and then discounted her own lived experiences. You do not understand why she is angry, and I have told you. You stated that problems she experienced did not exist. If women are saying that they are being turned away from the hobby because of how they are represented, we should listen.Gregory Wierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04773235150604731258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-40437441136901918142017-03-31T09:35:29.233-07:002017-03-31T09:35:29.233-07:00I think that men in the this hobby need to underst...I think that men in the this hobby need to understand that just because there are women miniatures, does not mean that women are represented. Yes the hobby has done a better job at making female minis, but, when women come out and say, 'thanks, but how about minis that are realistic and not cheesecake sexbombs,' we need to listen. And before you say, 'right Andrew, but some women want minis that are obviously female and others want androgyny, they'll never be happy,' I have this to say. We can have sexed (notice I didn't say sexual) minis as well as more androgynous/neutral minis AT THE SAME TIME! Don't faint! I know it is hard to conceive. Let's put it this way. If the context of the mini/squad (both female and male) is that they are super stealthy soldiers that wear body suits rather than suits of armor, it would make some sense to have models that tend to represent more of the physical nature of the sex of the model. What doesn't make sense, is if the males are all kitted up and in fight poses and the women are barely clothed and in sex poses. I feel like GW was headed in the correct direction with the Dark Eldar Wytchs. The males and females all look fairly similar in pose, details and kit with just a few hints via body type in the torsos and heads that some are women and some aren't. In the context, it makes sense. What doesn't make a whole lot of sense is scantly clad rail thin female warriors, wearing boob plate (deadly to the wearer,) and in the case of some mini companies, standing in a cheesecake sexual pose while the males are buff, ready to fight and fully armored. Put those ladies in the same armor and get their butts out of the air! "But some models have sex in their context, like demonettes!" True. But Demonettes are a huge problem all around. First of all, their name heavily implies women with the 'ettes' part. Second, despite being called androgynous in the fluff and only having one breast, they are clearly modeled in a female form. They are all lithe and feminine. Which brings up several questions. Why do female sexed models have to always be the seducers? How are Demonettes supposed to seduce a-sexual people, gay men and hetero women? Wouldn't it be fluffier if the Demonettes, like the Wyches, had multiple builds? 3 torso types, one with 2 breasts, one with 1 breast and one with none? Perhaps some slight facial adjustments? "Bu-bu-bu-but it's fantasy, it doesn't have to be realistic!' Fantasy does not = sexual fantasy nor should it. This is Warhammer, not Pornhub. There is no good reason to say that women warriors in a fantasy setting should be lithe boobplate wearing sexbombs just because it's a fantasy setting. It is still stupidly dangerous to wear armor in that style whether in a fantasy world or the real world. Women warriors should look just as athletic as their male counterparts. If the dude models don't have their ass in the air, then why do women? Most importantly, if the majority of the women gamers and hobbiests are saying they don't feel represented by these models, we have to ask ourselves who the models are for and why are we fighting to keep them. amaximushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04166777143772071808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-80352145505574425802017-03-31T03:28:09.850-07:002017-03-31T03:28:09.850-07:00I'd like to add to my comment that there is a ...I'd like to add to my comment that there is a real demand for such models, and this blogs shows it quite well with interesting and charismatic female characters. Offer is appearing to meet this demand nonetheless, with Privateer Press for example to some extent. Take the Old Witch of Khador for instance:<br /><br />http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/khador/warcasters/old-witch-of-khador-scrapjack<br /><br />This model is, in my opinion, one of the most charismatic characters of the faction, while not being young, in shape or even beautiful. So props to PP for starting to create this sort of models.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08962014442018040201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-50612641431578096132017-03-31T03:21:38.815-07:002017-03-31T03:21:38.815-07:00Great article, which is quite relevant in my opini...Great article, which is quite relevant in my opinion.<br /><br />I have recently had a similar talk with people working in the video game industry, and to some extent the representation of women is problematic there as well. Take the Street Fighter franchise for instance where most female characters are oversexualized while male bodies span on a wider range, featuring (relatively) aged or fat men (still in quite perfect physical shape). There is a serious issue here, as there is only one archetype for the female body (young, large breasts, and narrow waist) and a bit more for the male one.<br /><br />Back to 40k, I'd like to talk just a bit about the Space Marine/Sororitas. Both body archetypes are obviously completly exagerated, and I believe, are quite equally so. I realized recently that I quite enjoyed the SM models, as it would make some sort of sense that space warriors would have their bodies enhanced to a ridiculous point. So this exageration is fine for me, but I cannot understand the reason why a female fighter in a similar battle formation would have its features overly sexualized. My point is that, 40k isn't realistic so our existing differences make little sense in this universe, sure, but then if Sororita's bodies are not buffy and muscular then it shows some form of polarization between female and male in the hobby universe, and I find it troublesome.<br /><br />Another issue raises for less exagerated models: the relative absence of "average" female bodies. For instance, look at dwarves. They are not particularly in shape, with a little bit of belly and they like drinking. Even though it's not realistic (you don't say) in any way, I don't feel like they're the pinacle of dwarven bodybuilding. What's frustrating for me is that why are there so few female miniatures then? Why is it so hard to find a fat, ugly, and alcoholic she-dwarf model?<br /><br />I feel like we (the hobbyist) are stuck in some form of vicious circle though. The tabletop wargaming originally designed its miniatures in a quite sexist context letting us with only hyper-sexual female models. But this leads to to things: on the one hand, it narrows the imagination of some of us and on the other hand doesn't attract people who feel odd about these models (more women than men I imagine) to the hobby. Both of these factors create a low demand for non-sexualized models and the industry keeps producing sexist miniatures as a result. Therefore, I find it really great that such a topic is discussed from the inside because I strongly believe that this is one way to break the circle we're in. So thanks again for the article Greg!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08962014442018040201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-66946579502439803742017-03-30T09:53:10.521-07:002017-03-30T09:53:10.521-07:00Jp Gotrokkits calls everything he disagrees with S...Jp Gotrokkits calls everything he disagrees with SJW snowflakes because quite simply he has no argument and is threatened by the biological fact that men and women are not extremely or hyperbolically different. He also believes there is not a 'wage gap,' there is. He is threatened by people wanting accurate representation in inch-tall figures depicting fantastic heroines (and heroes). Women do not wear boob plate in battle, all genders have long hair and differing hip-to-waist ratio. He and his sexist, mysogynistic, patriarchal and bigoted warriors want to be protected from anything that challenges their narrow and shallow view of existence.amaximushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04166777143772071808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-30267324346279071542017-03-30T09:30:48.129-07:002017-03-30T09:30:48.129-07:00@Eli I think when going in the 'taking pride,&...@Eli I think when going in the 'taking pride,' direction we need to look at a lot of different things. Are all the women in the range 'taking pride,' or just a couple select models where it makes sense for them? Are the women 'taking pride,' in order to display body sovereignty or to please male gaze? Does the range generally do a good job of representing women that would like usable armor instead of exposed flesh? Are then males as armored in the same way? Like Aletheia said above about the Bloodreavers, are the women lithe and 'sexy' while the males are huge and muscular? In the context of the Bloodreavers it would make sense for a woman Bloodreaver to have some exposed skin, like the males however, it would make no sense for her to be lithe and have her ass sticking out. She should be ripped, pissed and in an athletic pose. None of that knocknee'd 'oops, did I do that,' cheescake BS like Confrontation was notorious for.amaximushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04166777143772071808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-78938346799834225142017-03-30T08:41:31.878-07:002017-03-30T08:41:31.878-07:00@Aletheia "Since bloodreaver male figures lo...@Aletheia "Since bloodreaver male figures look like an exaggerated version of steroid-filled male bodybuilders, femald bloodreavers would look like an exaggerated version of steroid-filled female bodybuilders."<br /><br />I was just talking to one of my hobby friends about this the other day. I wanted to build some women Bloodreavers but build them out like warrior bodybuilders rather than lithe sexy berserkers. I basically got stuck on the naked upper torso ideas. Trying to decide how to roll on that part. Most likely an armor plate, sans-boob plate. Considered the new woman Stormcast but I am not sure if the mono-boob is any better. Any thoughts?amaximushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04166777143772071808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-28816579427640967592017-03-22T18:37:44.171-07:002017-03-22T18:37:44.171-07:00I can understand the notion of women taking pride ...I can understand the notion of women taking pride in their bodies, and having the freedom to express themselves by presenting their bodies as they see fit. This, however, is different from tailoring images of women specifically for the male gaze. Models of women in degrading poses with revealing outfits are not about women expressing themselves, they are about appealing to male fantasies.<br /><br />Thanks for the comment about our attempts to bring realism to the medium. While some might scoff at trying to add realism to a game set in the far future, I think there is importance in trying to add a sense of believably to fantastic and out-of-this-world concepts. It is about trying to take the setting seriously. Presenting women as objects to ogle is not taking them seriously; it is just there for the gratification of men.Gregory Wierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04773235150604731258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-44382903375894917612017-03-21T08:12:46.069-07:002017-03-21T08:12:46.069-07:00Thanks for the suggestion, BrotherPink. I feel tha...Thanks for the suggestion, BrotherPink. I feel that is a good example of the sort of thing that GW could work towards doing when they release new Imperial Guard models.Gregory Wierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04773235150604731258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-21311268127739658832017-03-21T08:09:08.832-07:002017-03-21T08:09:08.832-07:00While I agree that taking a firm stand against sex...While I agree that taking a firm stand against sexism in miniatures is a certain risk, we are not talking about them changing all of their ranges overnight, just starting to with new kits if applicable. GW takes risks all of the time as is, like constantly changing the format of White Dwarf, or destroying the Old World and introducing Age of Sigmar. Adding a few female heads to a new Imperial Guard kit seems like much less of a risk than either of those, and one that needs to be taken.<br /><br />I agree that Warhammer could be difficult for a child who grew up in a war-torn country and has seen the horrors of war first hand. But, I feel that is an issue that all of wargaming must grapple with. GMT Games publishes a bunch of historical wargames exploring topics like the War on Terror, and I can understand why these games could make some people uncomfortable. But, I think that is a different issue than removing sexism from wargaming. Gregory Wierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04773235150604731258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-47685053898852696452017-03-20T18:10:18.798-07:002017-03-20T18:10:18.798-07:00I wanted to say that it's hard for GW to take ... I wanted to say that it's hard for GW to take risks appealing to groups beyond the demographics that helped them rise to popularity. But we are entering an era where GW is allowing itself to branch out. Perhaps we are ahead of the curve and ask "why doesn't GW get with the times?" But for them it's still a financial gamble. And the old dudes at GW may resist newer employees trying to push them to get with the times.<br /><br />I know many military service members worldwide are big into the hobby, but I was taking about civilians affected by war. It's hard if you're a Serian kid and you're playing a game, where the board looks like your parents hometown, then tell your folks 'it's just a game'. Someone with a disability like a spinal cord injury could be really receptive to table top war gaming, but if the miniatures reflect back at them, visually, the trauma they suffered it could dissuade from getting into the hobby.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10524252822308063012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-17377617486164245672017-03-19T15:38:11.946-07:002017-03-19T15:38:11.946-07:00Trolling comment is trolling.Trolling comment is trolling.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14077638366144771363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-10925233786313116602017-03-18T15:27:04.918-07:002017-03-18T15:27:04.918-07:00Aletheia calls everything she disagrees with sexis...Aletheia calls everything she disagrees with sexist, mysogynistic, patriarchal, and bigoted because quite simply she has no argument and is threatened by the biological fact that men and women are different. She also believes there is a "wage gap" there isn't. She is threatened by inch-tall figures depicting fantastic heroes (and heroines). Women have breasts, longer hair, and a pronounced hip-to-waist ratio. She and her SJW snowflake warriors want humans to be an androgynous, mentally dulled, species on the verge of existence. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11920980091640441213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901426566557963132.post-14129237764745922422017-03-17T01:30:22.885-07:002017-03-17T01:30:22.885-07:00Thanks Gregory!
//SimonThanks Gregory!<br />//SimonUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01634332970344255533noreply@blogger.com